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Old November 17, 2015, 08:52 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Best way to find stuff on the Veldar Elite is to search the posts of ex-GD Timothy.

Here's a link that will give you stuff, I went down to post 19, especially, which seemed like what you're talking about right now (I didn't go through the whole thread, there might be other stuff in there too): http://www.aelyria.com/forums/worldf...-strategy.html.

That said, I'd suggest not stressing too hard on the details. A lot of the write-ups were pruned considerably because they had way too much detail: the point of a write up is really to set the broad parameters of play, not to define the minutia of play - you want to give individual pcs/mods the freedom to actually play, after all, and consider too that you want to make it accessible to newer players and/or mods as well. The information barriers to play should be low.

EDIT: I should add that I would disregard his notes about the number of spell casters in the army, however. That is way too many spell casters. For comparisons' sake, there is no more mage corps at all in the Aelyrian legions, so there really shouldn't be any mages in the Veldar either. Maybe the odd one or two, so that those pcs who wish can go that route, but nothing formal.
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Old November 17, 2015, 09:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
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My suggestion, when you get to the draft stage (I know, not there yet) is you take a look at other faction write ups in the wiki and use them as a guide. I am not sure if there are any that are close/similar to the Veldar, but in terms of an outline as to what is required or needed for your write up, as well as formatting, that would help.

Unless there is an existing template made for Faction write ups (possible, but unlikely).

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Old November 17, 2015, 09:10 AM   #18 (permalink)
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The factions have less hard-set templates at present. I know Grim, from a convo we had, came up with a good template recently.

And if I could like Mims' post, I would do it 2 million times over.
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Old November 17, 2015, 09:44 AM   #19 (permalink)
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My thoughts on the Veldar


Just wanted to throw out my thoughts on paper. I think its a big deal to call the Veldar Elite a Dwarf-centric military unit, at least form a historical context and I will touch on that further down the thread. I get that the unit is based in Zerdargia and it probably has more Dwarves in it than a typical military unit might have but I think its akin to saying that Toronto is Asian-centric because it has more asians in it than Montreal.

I think it's a flawed premise to start your foundation on. In fact the Veldar ranks are filled up with numerous races. Perhaps having a specialized military unit that takes advantage of it's proximity to Dargis is one thing, but that might be as far as I would go.

Write up by former GM Timothy - Source Material

The above link is a write up by former GM Tim that I think makes an excellent starting point for the work you are doing. It also touches on the specialization within the unit. Rather than trying to create an entire Reginment that is unique. Naturally disregard the wage information as Nimh pointed out different era, and its no longer relevant for this conversation.


Old discussion thread -lots of useful links within

The above thread is a previous attempt to do what you are doing. There are several helpful links within the thread that should aid your research as you dig around the boards.

What jumps out at me straight away is that indeed while I was away the Veldar fell on hard times. The distinction between what it was, and what it has become is pretty significant.

I was arguing back then that we shouldn't re-write the history of the Veldar to suit where we want it to go. Rather we should try and preserve the history of the unit and build a road map forward through actual Roleplay on the boards with the creative team and actual PC's.

In re-reading the thread I am not so sure that I did a very good job articulating that point with Fetch back then.

Here is the complete write up from Fetch pulled out of the discussion. While I dont agree with the write up still....I present it here as writen so that you can read it over and see what helps and what does not.

Secrets :
The Veldar Elite

* For this write up I am going to use the ranks of the modern army rather than the Romanesque ranks of the Imperial Legions.

Company Sergeant Major Dirgus [aka Lack Hand] Stonethrottle was not pleased! It showed on his heavily lined face, the set of his bulbous nose and the hunched heavily muscled shoulders, he did not walk he stomped, his shining military issue black boots struck sparks as he marched across the parade ground of the Veldar Elite.

“That damned smartarse captain took the biscuit who the feth did he think he was , talk to me that way?”

The CSM would have kicked open the door of his office overlooking the parade ground if the door had been shut but luckily it was not other wise the regiments carpenters would have had an extra task to perform.The interview with the human captain had not been to Stonethrottles liking but as he sank into the chair behind the desk he loathed, he had to admit that the Veldar Elite it was not the regiment he had joined as a green behind the ears recruit it was not a quarter of what it had.

The current thinking was that the regiment was first founded by the Dwarves of Dargis. These elite warriors were considered the best Heavy Infantry of the Empire. Strangely the force called the Veldar Elite is small in number at its maximum capability those warriors who called themselves “Elite” numbered only 400. That figure Stonethrottle had been informed had dwindled to a mere two hundred!

It should be noted that scholars of military history disagree with this interpretation of the origins of this regiment and the debate in rarefied circles continues.

The rest of the battalion is made up of recruits known as the “Veldar” the Elite soldiers are the trainers of this larger recruit force which is drawn from volunteers the elite offer a specialised training over a period of a cycle where the recruit learns a combination of battle skills and a strict attention is given to physical endurance. In addition to the military volunteers of the Veldar the regiment offers for a price training to civilians.

This is the Veldar Elite. Founded long ago and drawing on the martial traditions of the city that go back centuries, the Veldar is arguably the most powerful, most decorated, most feared military regiment in the Empire. While much reduced in size from its former glory, it still sports a powerful punch of mounted and wagon borne infantry that are trained so well as to move and fight as one.

Diminished in size and capability by circumstance the losses incurred during the battle with the undead to defend Zerdargia in its hour of direst need the regiment was in need of new blood this was the task that Stonethrottle had been charged with!


His captain had spoken of the glories of the past and the state of “nowbright” My dear CSM we cannot defend a cat house at the moment , our duties to the province are neglected and as the senior non commissioned officer it falls to you to build the Veldar Elite again. We have just two hundred men who wear the badge of the elite and the Veldar itself numbers just a thousand combatant ready warriors. Your fighting days are over CSM but your reputation your battle scars can act as a recruiting symbol that can inspire the re-emergence of the regiment to its old numbers and its place within the annals of military history.

Company Sergeant Major Dirgus Stonethrottle had saluted by way of the traditional Veldar mode of throwing his aright hand across his chest and then walked out of the “Ruperts” office fuming! The crack about battle scars hurt as much as his “lackhand”

Some nasty piece of work raised from the dead to besiege the city of Zerdargia had attached its rotting teeth to the aforesaid left hand during the ferocious battle and in one of the most conspicuous moments of gallantry ever recorded in the annals of the Veldar Stonethrottle had sacrificed his own hand by dint of cutting it off with his axe and in that act smashed the skull of the undead. Binding the arm up he had continued to fight and rally his men the long brightening through before fainting away from loss of blood when the battle had been won. No one called him lackhand to his face but whispered the nickname over a pint of ale in the mess in awed tones.

The CSM lit up his pipe and putting his feet up on his scarred desk considered the task ahead. Ideally the regiment was to be manned to adequately perform the main tasks of its remit.

Organization

The Veldar is divided up by function normally. Each function will dictate how members of that function spend their days:

Combat Arms They do most of the patrolling (although other divisions do patrol as well). There usually is one night and one-day patrol in each of the three sectors of one squadron each (10 men led by a Corporal). When not patrolling, they spend a lot of time in physical training, weapons practice, guard duty at the gates, and small unit tactics.

Military Intelligence - Most of their time is spent collecting information. They make maps, gather inteligence on local bandit activity, and occasionally attempt to infiltrate guilds, wandering bands, etc. They also have a few soldiers who tinker with new and interesting gadgets, sometimes with rather explosive consequences.

Security- These soldiers patrol the Veldar compound and maintain the stockade as well as investigate crimes on base. Many are also trained as dog handlers.

Town patrol - The 4 squadrons rotate shifts so that 2 are always on duty at a given time. They usually pair off patrolling around town in one of two sectors and occasionally checking back with the corporal of the watch.

Administration - When not on patrol, these soldiers work a regular 9-5 type of job. They are the cooks, blacksmiths, paymasters, accountants, and teamsters of the Veldar. They are all trained in driving horse drawn wagons, which are of great use in carrying supplies and troops. They often cross train in various crafts such as leatherworking, armor making, and so forth.

Training- The biggest job of the Training division is running the basic and advanced classes. These are the Drill Instructors and Assistant Drill Instructors but they also, as a matter of course, need to be masters of the skill they are teaching, be it a weapon, wilderness survival, or small unit leadership.

In war, the Veldar is quickly split up into 3 battalions [1500 men], each commanded directly by either the commander, Lt commander, or the duty officer. They communicate well with each other by means of whistles and flags and can fight well in any terrain and in any condition. While basically a force of mounted infantry (brought to the battlefield usually by wagon or horseback and dismounting to fight), due to the heavy emphasis on training in the Veldar each soldier usually is trained in two or more disciplines; hand-to-hand, archery, cavalry, sapping, etc. Thus the force can be very flexible.

Stonethrottle quickly realised that the Veldar could barely put a battalion into the field at their current recruitment levels. The city from whence the cash coin came to finance the Veldar was locked into an expensive round of rebuilding and money for the military was not forthcoming to support a fully fashioned and recruited Veldar.

Bugga it growled the CSM he needed a pint in the mess and a chance to talk with some of his senior colleagues.

OOC ~1 - I wish to thank GD Timothy for his amazing work on the Veldar Elite from which I have drawn heavily for this write up. This overview of the current state of the regiment is open to discussion.

2 - The mess barracks, and uniform description will follow later.




Hopefully some of this information helps make your job going forward a little easier. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Abe.

Regards.
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Old November 17, 2015, 10:05 AM   #20 (permalink)
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If I'm honest, I don't even really see the point of including the pay scale at all. It's minutiae that ought to be easily discerned by reading the wealth guide. We don't have pay scales included in other write-ups.
I see where you are coming from. I guess it can be cut unless someone has a compelling arguement for keeping it?
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Old November 17, 2015, 11:15 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I'd either drop it, or have a brief comment on it, perhaps...

"Salary/Pay is determined by rank and performance, and is similar to those of other similar military organizations/factions."

Or something of your own writing.

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Old November 17, 2015, 11:23 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimesis View Post
Best way to find stuff on the Veldar Elite is to search the posts of ex-GD Timothy.

Here's a link that will give you stuff, I went down to post 19, especially, which seemed like what you're talking about right now (I didn't go through the whole thread, there might be other stuff in there too): http://www.aelyria.com/forums/worldf...-strategy.html.

That said, I'd suggest not stressing too hard on the details. A lot of the write-ups were pruned considerably because they had way too much detail: the point of a write up is really to set the broad parameters of play, not to define the minutia of play - you want to give individual pcs/mods the freedom to actually play, after all, and consider too that you want to make it accessible to newer players and/or mods as well. The information barriers to play should be low.

EDIT: I should add that I would disregard his notes about the number of spell casters in the army, however. That is way too many spell casters. For comparisons' sake, there is no more mage corps at all in the Aelyrian legions, so there really shouldn't be any mages in the Veldar either. Maybe the odd one or two, so that those pcs who wish can go that route, but nothing formal.
I have noticed many of the writeups in the wiki are fairly... ?non-specific? regarding a great many things, giving a more general overview of things rather than great detail. That is my end goal, but my personal opinion is that in order to make a writeup that will stand the test of time and provide the basis for years of RP to come, it needs to be based in some form of reality. As an extreme example, it would be really easy to just say "All Veldar Elite are super soldiers trained to the extreme and paid at the adamantite level. There are half a million strong and could wipe the Imperial Army in their butts." but that wouldn't be a realistic interpretation of the fantasy world. By discussing the specifics, you can narrow down A) the realities of the organization and B) the key information required vs 'extra fluff' which is only used to determine defined bounds of fact/canon.

If you look at my third post in this thread, you'll notice I've been updating it with a general format and the overall expected headings/subheadings/information requirements for the actual wiki article. Much of what is being discussed (and even posted by me) is not going to touch the actual wiki draft as it is information overload for the intent of the wiki. One example here is the little map I posted outlining the Dwarflands (which through more research I've already determined is very flawed). While I find it helpful to have a visual interpretation of the VE's area of responsibility (AOR), I don't feel there is any need to have a map of the VE's AOR in the article. At most, only a brief statement of "The VE traditionally patrols not only Zerdargia, but _______ area."

Overall, just like when writing an essay, there is potentially limitless information from which to draw from, but at the end of the day only the essential and directly relevant information makes the final cut.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
Quote hidden to condense.
Secrets :
My thoughts on the Veldar


Just wanted to throw out my thoughts on paper. I think its a big deal to call the Veldar Elite a Dwarf-centric military unit, at least form a historical context and I will touch on that further down the thread. I get that the unit is based in Zerdargia and it probably has more Dwarves in it than a typical military unit might have but I think its akin to saying that Toronto is Asian-centric because it has more asians in it than Montreal.

I think it's a flawed premise to start your foundation on. In fact the Veldar ranks are filled up with numerous races. Perhaps having a specialized military unit that takes advantage of it's proximity to Dargis is one thing, but that might be as far as I would go.

Write up by former GM Timothy - Source Material

The above link is a write up by former GM Tim that I think makes an excellent starting point for the work you are doing. It also touches on the specialization within the unit. Rather than trying to create an entire Reginment that is unique. Naturally disregard the wage information as Nimh pointed out different era, and its no longer relevant for this conversation.


Old discussion thread -lots of useful links within

The above thread is a previous attempt to do what you are doing. There are several helpful links within the thread that should aid your research as you dig around the boards.

What jumps out at me straight away is that indeed while I was away the Veldar fell on hard times. The distinction between what it was, and what it has become is pretty significant.

I was arguing back then that we shouldn't re-write the history of the Veldar to suit where we want it to go. Rather we should try and preserve the history of the unit and build a road map forward through actual Roleplay on the boards with the creative team and actual PC's.

In re-reading the thread I am not so sure that I did a very good job articulating that point with Fetch back then.

Here is the complete write up from Fetch pulled out of the discussion. While I dont agree with the write up still....I present it here as writen so that you can read it over and see what helps and what does not.

Secrets :
The Veldar Elite

* For this write up I am going to use the ranks of the modern army rather than the Romanesque ranks of the Imperial Legions.

Company Sergeant Major Dirgus [aka Lack Hand] Stonethrottle was not pleased! It showed on his heavily lined face, the set of his bulbous nose and the hunched heavily muscled shoulders, he did not walk he stomped, his shining military issue black boots struck sparks as he marched across the parade ground of the Veldar Elite.

“That damned smartarse captain took the biscuit who the feth did he think he was , talk to me that way?”

The CSM would have kicked open the door of his office overlooking the parade ground if the door had been shut but luckily it was not other wise the regiments carpenters would have had an extra task to perform.The interview with the human captain had not been to Stonethrottles liking but as he sank into the chair behind the desk he loathed, he had to admit that the Veldar Elite it was not the regiment he had joined as a green behind the ears recruit it was not a quarter of what it had.

The current thinking was that the regiment was first founded by the Dwarves of Dargis. These elite warriors were considered the best Heavy Infantry of the Empire. Strangely the force called the Veldar Elite is small in number at its maximum capability those warriors who called themselves “Elite” numbered only 400. That figure Stonethrottle had been informed had dwindled to a mere two hundred!

It should be noted that scholars of military history disagree with this interpretation of the origins of this regiment and the debate in rarefied circles continues.

The rest of the battalion is made up of recruits known as the “Veldar” the Elite soldiers are the trainers of this larger recruit force which is drawn from volunteers the elite offer a specialised training over a period of a cycle where the recruit learns a combination of battle skills and a strict attention is given to physical endurance. In addition to the military volunteers of the Veldar the regiment offers for a price training to civilians.

This is the Veldar Elite. Founded long ago and drawing on the martial traditions of the city that go back centuries, the Veldar is arguably the most powerful, most decorated, most feared military regiment in the Empire. While much reduced in size from its former glory, it still sports a powerful punch of mounted and wagon borne infantry that are trained so well as to move and fight as one.

Diminished in size and capability by circumstance the losses incurred during the battle with the undead to defend Zerdargia in its hour of direst need the regiment was in need of new blood this was the task that Stonethrottle had been charged with!


His captain had spoken of the glories of the past and the state of “nowbright” My dear CSM we cannot defend a cat house at the moment , our duties to the province are neglected and as the senior non commissioned officer it falls to you to build the Veldar Elite again. We have just two hundred men who wear the badge of the elite and the Veldar itself numbers just a thousand combatant ready warriors. Your fighting days are over CSM but your reputation your battle scars can act as a recruiting symbol that can inspire the re-emergence of the regiment to its old numbers and its place within the annals of military history.

Company Sergeant Major Dirgus Stonethrottle had saluted by way of the traditional Veldar mode of throwing his aright hand across his chest and then walked out of the “Ruperts” office fuming! The crack about battle scars hurt as much as his “lackhand”

Some nasty piece of work raised from the dead to besiege the city of Zerdargia had attached its rotting teeth to the aforesaid left hand during the ferocious battle and in one of the most conspicuous moments of gallantry ever recorded in the annals of the Veldar Stonethrottle had sacrificed his own hand by dint of cutting it off with his axe and in that act smashed the skull of the undead. Binding the arm up he had continued to fight and rally his men the long brightening through before fainting away from loss of blood when the battle had been won. No one called him lackhand to his face but whispered the nickname over a pint of ale in the mess in awed tones.

The CSM lit up his pipe and putting his feet up on his scarred desk considered the task ahead. Ideally the regiment was to be manned to adequately perform the main tasks of its remit.

Organization

The Veldar is divided up by function normally. Each function will dictate how members of that function spend their days:

Combat Arms They do most of the patrolling (although other divisions do patrol as well). There usually is one night and one-day patrol in each of the three sectors of one squadron each (10 men led by a Corporal). When not patrolling, they spend a lot of time in physical training, weapons practice, guard duty at the gates, and small unit tactics.

Military Intelligence - Most of their time is spent collecting information. They make maps, gather inteligence on local bandit activity, and occasionally attempt to infiltrate guilds, wandering bands, etc. They also have a few soldiers who tinker with new and interesting gadgets, sometimes with rather explosive consequences.

Security- These soldiers patrol the Veldar compound and maintain the stockade as well as investigate crimes on base. Many are also trained as dog handlers.

Town patrol - The 4 squadrons rotate shifts so that 2 are always on duty at a given time. They usually pair off patrolling around town in one of two sectors and occasionally checking back with the corporal of the watch.

Administration - When not on patrol, these soldiers work a regular 9-5 type of job. They are the cooks, blacksmiths, paymasters, accountants, and teamsters of the Veldar. They are all trained in driving horse drawn wagons, which are of great use in carrying supplies and troops. They often cross train in various crafts such as leatherworking, armor making, and so forth.

Training- The biggest job of the Training division is running the basic and advanced classes. These are the Drill Instructors and Assistant Drill Instructors but they also, as a matter of course, need to be masters of the skill they are teaching, be it a weapon, wilderness survival, or small unit leadership.

In war, the Veldar is quickly split up into 3 battalions [1500 men], each commanded directly by either the commander, Lt commander, or the duty officer. They communicate well with each other by means of whistles and flags and can fight well in any terrain and in any condition. While basically a force of mounted infantry (brought to the battlefield usually by wagon or horseback and dismounting to fight), due to the heavy emphasis on training in the Veldar each soldier usually is trained in two or more disciplines; hand-to-hand, archery, cavalry, sapping, etc. Thus the force can be very flexible.

Stonethrottle quickly realised that the Veldar could barely put a battalion into the field at their current recruitment levels. The city from whence the cash coin came to finance the Veldar was locked into an expensive round of rebuilding and money for the military was not forthcoming to support a fully fashioned and recruited Veldar.

Bugga it growled the CSM he needed a pint in the mess and a chance to talk with some of his senior colleagues.

OOC ~1 - I wish to thank GD Timothy for his amazing work on the Veldar Elite from which I have drawn heavily for this write up. This overview of the current state of the regiment is open to discussion.

2 - The mess barracks, and uniform description will follow later.




Hopefully some of this information helps make your job going forward a little easier. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Abe.

Regards.

I haven't read through the entirety of the threads you posted here, but I think the difficult part is separating the Canon vs Non-Canon history of the VE. Once the wiki page is up, it becomes the Canon history. Previous writeups in the realmcraft/worldforge archives (especially those which were never formally approved and stamped as such) are Non-Canon. Actualy RPed events on the forums have to be taken as Canon as much as is possible, except where two different sources provide mutually exclusive conflicting information. As an example, if one RPed thread says the VE were formed in era 9300, and one says they were formed in era 9800, then that is mutually exclusive conflicting canon. It must then be determined through discussion and comparisson to other related history which is most accurate, then it gets incorporated into the article to become canon.
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Old November 17, 2015, 11:28 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shalafi View Post
My suggestion, when you get to the draft stage (I know, not there yet) is you take a look at other faction write ups in the wiki and use them as a guide. I am not sure if there are any that are close/similar to the Veldar, but in terms of an outline as to what is required or needed for your write up, as well as formatting, that would help.

Unless there is an existing template made for Faction write ups (possible, but unlikely).

Shal
Check out the third post in this thread for a very general outline of the template I'll be using. Its always changing, but will give a general overview of the status of the draft wiki article.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalafi View Post
I'd either drop it, or have a brief comment on it, perhaps...

"Salary/Pay is determined by rank and performance, and is similar to those of other similar military organizations/factions."

Or something of your own writing.

Shal
Done, check out third post as above.
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Old November 17, 2015, 11:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Yah that looks like a good start (post 3), though of course for the final draft and article, you'll likely have to remove the frames.

Look forward to this discussion helping you flesh it all out.

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Old November 17, 2015, 12:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Okay, stepping in here...!

As Shalafi said (only I'll put my words on them), frames are no good very bad things. I realize this is sort of a beginner template for you, draft wise (I don't want to actually see a draft in this thread, although I'm good with mining your info into one spot), but make sure that those frames don't make it into the actual draft.

Re: Third post and "Separate Wiki Subpage to flesh out ranks/pay/training? Called "Progression in the Veldar Elite"?

You can delete the question mark with a firm answer here of "No, there's no need for that sort of subpage. Nope."

Again, I am going to point you to the Imperial Army and Navy articles and stick firm with the fact that we have trimmed down on over information. It's nice that you want that. Great. But too much info won't be approved. We want just the right information. It's fine to touch upon some specifics but for the most part, things like pay and exact numbers are no good very unimportant things that no one really needs. Things like a generalized write-up about training--sure! To the letter training information? No one needs that. You can write-up a simple paragraph about training without going over the top.

I will over and over again stress Imperial Navy and Army write-ups. Mims did a great job trimming them up. Please read them. Please use them as your guide here.


Re: Canon vs Non-Canon

Take what you feel the Veldar are and go with it. When you produce a draft, people can and will step in to tweak and mold it so that everyone can find a common ground, particularly with non-canon. Don't worry about what has or has not been approved. Just write from what your view is. If it's wrong, people will help tweak. Don't get hung up and hesitant about the non-canon stuff.

Discussions vs Drafts

I've found over the years that discussions are well and good but actually producing a write-up is more useful for discussion than anything else. It's good to have a discussion so that people can be like "oh here's this link with that info" and to start a basis for the draft, particularly when we have so many people who KNOW STUFF. But don't get hung up on the discussion. I find discussions to ultimately not go very far in terms of actually shaping the write-up. Too many cooks in a kitchen and trying to get everyone on the same page can be a headache.

^ Just a note on making sure you take the discussion for what it is and make sure you don't sit too long in it, particularly if you're already working on a draft and have a view of what you want.
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Old November 17, 2015, 12:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Oh, for sure, I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that your wiki entry shouldn't be based on what was actually rp'd! I'm 120% percent on board with that, and I'm not against trying to figure out details of things either. For myself I absolutely try to do as much research as I can and include rp'd details in play to tie threads/plots/locales together, and I wouldn't discourage this at all - it's just that not all of these details belong in the wiki. But if you want to figure them out so that you and whoever else is super into the Veldar can rp that way, I've got no problem with that!

Edit to piggy-back on Nimh: I'll stress again that it's not a problem if you want to sort out details so that you, and Ulfgar, and anyone who wants to can go into the details and have a vision for how to rp the Veldar. But there is a difference between these details and what goes in the wiki. For example, I play a pc from a race whose write-up got ejected from the wiki because they're not played much at all and kind of overlap with other races (Nimalni; they weren't the only ones to get the boot, a lot of sub-races had the same thing happen). Does this mean that Nimalni have ceased to exist and people can't rp them? Of course not! People are still most welcome to create Nimalni characters, and their country (Nimal) still exists, and the old write-ups on the Nimalni/Nimal would still doubtless be considered canon on that topic. But this information is not important enough (read: it's not used enough) to make it into the wiki.
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Old November 17, 2015, 02:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Nimh: Don't worry about the format in that draft post. It is solely a place for the content that will/may go into the draft, not the format of the actual draft. I have read the post you made "Workflow Rules, Article Standards & Write-up Templates" about the format and come time to write the actual draft, it will comply with the rules laid out therein (and have a similar look and feel to the existing Army/Navy wiki articles.) At the rate information is coming in, I expect it won't be long before I have enough to start an actual draft thread using the proper formatting rules. I honestly didn't expect even close to this much of a response this fast from people based off the activity of the worldforge forum. It makes me feel good for the game that when something is brought up, there can be so much contribution from the community so quickly.

Canon vs non-canon... All I'm saying is unless there is a compelling reason otherwise, canon (aka for example what you say in character) takes precedence over a draft/discussion thread which was just a brainstorm session between folks OOC and which was never formally approved. All good ideas should be valid, but if a good idea conflicts greatly with other separate canon sources of information, it in my opinion ceases to be a good idea.

Ack on the subpages, there will not be any.
--------------

Mimesis: The main reason I want to see all the resources possible before writing the draft is so that after writing the draft, including some history of the VE that fits in with other established histories, I don't want someone last minute to go "Ohh hey, you didn't factor in this wiki article/thread which clearly outlines the canon history of the VE and you got it all wrong." Aelyria at its core is a story made up by literally thousands of people over the years, so there is bound to be a fair bit of contradiction, but as much as humanly possible I want to factor in that which has already been said in order to maintain the integrity of both the article and the RPed threads that many people have put so much of themselves into. From what I know of you, I'm sure you can respect that and probably agree. =D
---------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaban View Post
My thoughts on the Veldar
...
I think it's a flawed premise to start your foundation on. In fact the Veldar ranks are filled up with numerous races. Perhaps having a specialized military unit that takes advantage of it's proximity to Dargis is one thing, but that might be as far as I would go.
...
I'll respond to this using 100% canon based resources to provide context to the primarily dwarven nature of the the VE.

In the History of Early Centripax, it says several key things. Veldar was a dwarf, who came to the dwarf kingdom of Dargis, and united the warring Dwarf clans to create the city of Zerdargia. Veldar's army of dwarves defended the (presumed) Dwarflands from attack from the Chelseyan province.

Population/culture of major areas of Centripax, taken from their respective wiki pages:
Zerdargia - 150,000 - Dwarves, built by a dwarf "King", Veldar, for the dwarves.
Primus Gaudeo - 750,000 - Predominantly dwarves with some humans, built by a dwarf (King Doli) for dwarves.
Midpoint - 15,000 - Human, Dwarves, Cethers
Dargis - 24,000 - Dwarves ONLY.
Other commonly RPed cities each have only a tiny population (Acumin - 150, Natura - 5000).

Now this is less Canon, but just a (IMHO) reasonable intuitive leap. For a para-military force in a province occupied primarily by dwarves (I'd speculate 75-85%)... based out of a city habited by almost entirely dwarves... a paramilitary force which is the successor of a near exclusively dwarven kingdom (that at the time did not look kindly upon non-dwarves)... it is reasonable to assume the general traditions, culture, tactics, composition, etc etc etc would be based nearly exclusively on dwarves.

Yes, there ARE non-dwarves in the VE, in fact a large portion of the PCs who have joined the VE are non-dwarves, but that doesn't change the reality that while there are some non-dwarves who are valued members of the VE, the recruitment pool for the VE is almost exclusively dwarves and therefore the VE would be primarily dwarves.

Overall, its not just one wiki article or one thread that supports the concept that the VE are primarily dwarves, but nearly every single resource I've seen from the canon wiki articles to RPed out threads.
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Old November 17, 2015, 05:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I guess one thing we need to determine is how big the Veldar Elite are.

A plausible origin history is like so (point form, not article quality):
- Veldar comes to Centripax, unites the warring dwarf clans, founds Zerdargia, and raises an army of dwarves.
- Veldar's army (?Veldar Legion?, I'll call them that for this post though not set in stone) is charged with the protection of the dwarflands (seems from the History of Early Centripax he had the support of the now defunct Kingdom of Dargis)
- Veldar's Legion has a regiment within in called the Veldar Elite, which are quite literally the elite, battle hardened, highly skilled members of the Velder Legion.
- At this point it seems Zerdargia was morso the capital of the Dwarflands, a collection of lands which may or may not have been collectively called Zerdargia.
- Veldar's dwarf empire joins the Aelyrian Empire, he becomes Duke Veldar, Duchy of Zerdargia (again, my impression is Zerdargia controlled the dwarflands at this point in time, with the Kingdom of Dargis controlling the area of Subterranea)
- Dwarves and Chelseyans go to war when Chelsey invides the Dwarflands, Dwarves win but suffer numerous casualties.
- Veldar leaves and goes home (away from Aelyria) because he knows the Chelseyans want remove him from power more than anything else.
- Veldar's nephew, Doli becomes the Duke of Zerdargia.
- Duke Doli not a warrior like his father wants peace. Over the course of his reign, he (being far more tollerant of other races than most dwarves of the time.) demilitarized Zerdargia, founded Primus Gaudeo, Acumin, Natura, and Riparia, and somehow united Zerdargia and the Kingdom of Dargis together.

So, this is where becomes more open to interpretation. When Zerdargia was demilitarized, it is plausible the Verldar Elite remained, as a small force.

From there, we have a couple avenues of thought.

A) The Veldar Elite grew over time, and eventually became a semi-province wide paramilitary force...

B) The Veldar Elite remainded a small but elite fighting unit...

Each train of thought comes with some pros and cons in terms of how it fits into the world.

There are numerous threads in the RPed history of the VE which indicate the VE regularly patrols, secures, protects the Dwarflands. Also, the VE have often been quoted as being responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Zerdargia, in effect, the city guard. Now, in order for a group to be able to both 'police' a city of 150,000 people, it will need to have a fairly sizeable force dedicated solely to law enforcement and city patrol. Based on some quick research into the comparison of police/city guards to total population in the 1700s-early 1900s, I've come up with a ratio of approximately one guard per 250-300 people. This would have Zerdargia requiring 500-600 solely for law enforcement and protection of the city population, to say nothing of outside military/barbarian threats. If they are also responsible for these city protection duties, that adds some required personnel. If you add to that the idea the Veldar Elite takes responsibility for maintaining safe roads, patrolling some of the Great Mountains, Frumplebush, Dolwoods, etc, then you are likely going to need another large chunk of VE members. These factors support the VE being a fairly large force with a fair bit of responsibility within Centripax. Them being larger, by its nature, would detract from their "eliteness" a little bit.

On the flip side, there are some RP sources which give the impression the VE are a small force. Now if they are a small force, that raises the question of for the last 6-700 eras, who has been maintaining all those duties listed above?

The article A Primer to the Military states:

"- The Veldar Elite is a fighting force based in Zerdargia with a long history stretching back to the Dwarven Kingdom of Dargis. It is mainly composed of dwarves and cethers."

This is listed as a local militia/paramilitary group, a type of organization serving "provinces and large cities".


My personal opinion, based on everything I've seen so far, is the VE are likely a small to mid-sized local to semi-provincial paramilitary force based out of Zerdargia but whos reach, influence, and protection would be felt to varrying degrees throughout the north, east, and south-southeast Centripax. Their "Elite" status, is moreso an homage to their military heritage, but also represents their focus on very rigorous training standards as well as their discipline and ferocity in battle. They would be composed of primarily dwarves, with cethers, humans, giants, and a small number of elves filling their ranks. Their composition would likely be primarily medium-heavy infantry, with a small groups of cavalry, some scout groups, a primarily defensive artillery contingent, and their support groups as well. This being said, there are several issues to contend with on that train of thought as well. The undead war RPed out significant loss of life to VE members.

Speculating... They used to be very small and elite, maintained that while doing mostly city guard stuff with the occasional tasking requested by the Imperial Army. After the undead war, their numbers dwindled, with the city guard/patrol being reduced to ?half? their previous numbers. Their saving grace could be the return of several tasked out patrols after the undead war, giving them just enough manpower to make due and train new recruits. By the time of the Xet invasion, they were restored to near their previous manning levels (a large city defense/law enforcement force with some small party taskings outside the city.) During the Xet invasion, the provincial military was completely wiped out, leaving a gap in the protection of the province. The VE lost some people as well, but they weren't hit as hard. The VE, out of a sense of duty now do what they can to fill the role of the provincial military. This could be in part because after the undead war there was absolutely no assistance provided by the Empire. The Zerdargian people resent this, and many VE are Zerdargian. They don't feel the Aelyrian Empire is going to come protect their lands, so the VE set to expanding their force and protecting as much of the province as they can?

At this point I'm pretty much just spitballing and likely getting into stuff that would need to be RPed out versus stuff that would be in the wiki article, but its some food for thought. I blame being tired and thus getting into puke all over the keyboard mode.

---------------------

So, in terms of numbers (which before anyone loses a marble, will not make it into the article but which are solely for my own mental processes), I'd say the VE could be a force in the 500-1000 range of highly trained soldiers. Responsibilities are primarily the maintenance of law and order as well as protection of Zerdargia. They are at times contracted by the Imperial Army to carry out specific tasks within provincial lines which the Imperial Army does not have the capability or the available resources to do themselves. At that size, a smaller rank structure could theoretically be maintained. Does anyone agree/disagree one way or another with this statement?

PS: Reviewing Xet invasion threads make my mind turn to mush. Does anyone have a thread describing the effect of the Xet invasion on the province and specifically the provincial military? I'm sure I read somewhere it was basically destroyed, I just can't find it.
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Old November 17, 2015, 05:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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For what it is worth when I RP'ed Ulfgar's Advanced training thread I borrowed directly from another Advanced Training Thread that was originally written/RPed by Preston and finished by Visigoth but it was taken from a thread that GM Timothy RPed here - Advanced Training

Now, GM Timothy mentions that in the VE there are 6 different modes of service, which are quoted below.

Quote:
There are 6 MOSes in the Veldar; Combat Arms, Military Intelligence, Security, Town Watch, Training, and Administration. Each has a special task that they accomplish. The Combat Arms people are the infantry, archers and cavalry who do most of the actual fighting. If you work well in groups and like action, that is the route for you. Military Intelligence are the spies and information gatherers. If you work better alone, this would be a choice. Security handles the safety of the Veldar Compound and helps protect the regiment out in the field, often using guard dogs. Town Watch are an auxillary of the constabulary in the city and serve as a quick reaction force in the event of social unrest. Training people like me teach the new crop of soldiers and by necessity become masters of what they teach. Finally Admin are all the people that keep the force in the field; cooks, blacksmiths, paymasters, and so on. Without them, the Veldar would cease to exist in a couple of days.”
Looking at that, it reads as if the VE could cover every military, policing and intelligence need that Zerdargia has. Does this still ring true for the VE and Zerdargia currently?
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Old November 17, 2015, 06:00 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Hard to say what rings true, theres so many different interpretations of the VE out there. For a military group to have each of those different branches, it would need to be in the thousands strong at least I would suspect. Conservatively, if you had:

3 companies combat arms
1 intelligence & security
3 town watch
1 training & administration

You are looking at over 1000 members strong. I suppose that could fit for pre-undead war numbers. Overall, its all just theory though because there are so many varied interpretations of the VE.
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