Old July 16, 2008, 06:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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[Discussion] Dream Walking

So, I had a load of time at the airport last night, and I wrote a bunch of notes on dreamwalking. This is the result, appended into semi-coherent form! (Thanks to Ab'reth for putting up with all my rambling )

This is in note form, and I’m hoping that most of it makes sense. If not, I apologise- I’m just hoping that this will be enough to spark a discussion, which will hopefully lead to a write up at some point. Which will be useful, considering there are a number of PCs interested in learning this now.

So first, prerequisites. I don’t think this is something that everyone should be able to learn.

1) Since this is something which takes place within the dream realm, I’d say you would need to be a follower of Kaimela or Risthal, first off, and dedicated. No sudden converting and saying you want to be a dream walker, for example. Else we’ll have them cropping up all over the place, all the time.
2) You need to be a waking dreamer.
3) You would need a guide/teacher, given the dangers inherent within the dream realm.

Second, skills. Again, this is what I came up with. Everything is very, very open to discussion.

Basic Dream Walking

-Entering the dream realm (this is not a physical thing- you are leaving your body behind and it would therefore be exposed)
-Manipulating your own space within the dream realm. This starts off as a blank canvas, which you can change to appear as you will. At this level, however, the effects aren’t lasting, as the dream realm constantly shifts.
-Opening Doors. The dream walker can open doors into other people’s dreams. At this low level, however, the effect is random- they cannot decide whose dreams they wish to enter.
-Communicating with dreamers- Dream walkers can talk to dreamers as they sleep, but they may not remember anything in the waking world (such being the nature of dreams.)
-Dream Walkers are able to take on one dream form by which they are known.
-Learn that you can only bring information into the dream world (nothing physical at all)
-Learn of the manifestation of sub conscious mind, dangers, etc. (see dangers below)

Intermediate Dream Walking

- Intermediate control of dream doors- Cannot enter any specific person’s dreams, only people you have a close bond with (friends, family.) Success is never guaranteed. (The dream world is always shifting)
-Intermediate Manipulation- small changes within other people’s dreams (perceived mass?), greater changes within your own.
-Learn about the dream plane in its differences to the physical world .
-Introduced to the concept that the only limitation is yourself- need to accept that you can enter anyone’s dreams regardless of where they physically are.
-Can communicate with dreamers, if closely connected they have a good chance of remembering.
-Manipulate small things about your dream form.

Journeyman Dream Walking

-Advanced control of dream doors- The dream walker can open doors into the dreams of anybody you know, as long as they have met them
-Advanced Manipulation of dreams- greater changes within other people’s dreams. Your own dream space becomes more solid, and stays as you left it each time you enter.
-Ability to lock people within your own dream space by closing off all doors

Master Dream Walking

- The ability to travel between connecting dreams (dream walkers can enter the dreams of people they might not know, through the dreams of those they do.)
- Dream walkers can change their form at will, to anything they like.
- Dream walkers can lock people within anyone’s dream
- Dream walkers can lock people inside their own dreams- in the physical world, they would appear to be in a coma.
- The ability to create ‘sentient’ characters/creatures within dreams.

Grandmaster Dream Walking

- The dream walker can kill people within their own dreams.
- Greater ability in creating ‘sentient’ characters/creatures

Dangers

- Dream Walkers need to remember that the dream realm is simply that. If they believe that anything is real, they could end up being harmed/dead. (for example, if you are shot with an arrow in the dream realm and believe it to be real, your mind could believe your body to be dead, at which point it would die.)
-Sub consciousness (any self doubt, etc) manifests itself in the dreams as a shadow, or something, stalking you, and can cause harm. Every time you do something in the dream, it empowers it just a little. As you become more powerful, so does it. Therefore must learn self control, or else be overwhelmed. Meditation helps.
-Time is flexible- dangerous. Spending what seems like a few minutes in the dream realm could actually be a few brightenings within that of the physical.

There is also the matter of followers of Risthal versus followers of Kaimelea. The former would likely be more forceful, actively hunting followers of Kaimelea and either seeking to convert them, or destroy.
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Old July 16, 2008, 06:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I wonder how this would be connected to the Arcane? Would the "Dream State" be considered a plane? I wonder if this could actually be a new sphere of Arcana, but then, it would tie closely to mystism in different aspects...

Overall though, I like it. Good job! I hope this gets plenty of attention and gets put to use soon. It would be fun to see it Rp'd.
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Old July 16, 2008, 08:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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All of these powers take place in the Dream Realm, which is a completely different plane. It has nothing to do with arcana whatsoever. (:

Thank you, though. I'm hoping to see this turn into a good discussion as to how well this would work, whether these powers are feasible, if more could be added, etc!

Also, the prerequisites to actually learning something like this. Should there be a requirement for how long the PC has worshipped Kaimelea or Risthal? Also, how would you pass this skill on? How skilled would you need to be to bring someone else into the dream world with you and actually teach them this stuff? Could it be passed on to non-worshippers?

I want your thoughts.
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Old July 16, 2008, 08:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I really like the idea of non worshipers having the opportunity to learn it on rare occasion. I think it should be possible, because didn't the dream realm exist before either of these demi gods came along? Do they own it, define it entirely, or are they just squatters?

I'd think both Kaimelea or Risthal would dislike these individuals, as they'd disrupt the order each of these goddesses exert on the realm, so, be out to get rid of them, but it could be interesting. *shrugs*
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Old July 16, 2008, 08:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm not answering the first question, since I don't know the answer.

If an individual like that existed, I would expect that either followers of Kaimelea or Risthal would do the whole 'convert or kill' thing, otherwise they'd be disrupting and a nuisance.

Thing is, I don't believe this should be something that a person can do on their own. They would need a guide, who could show them away, and that guide would be a follower of one of the two...That said, what happens if a person suddenly stops worshipping? Would the planetar's simply shut their powers off? I'm sure it's something within their ability to do.
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Old July 22, 2008, 04:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I love this. I really love this. My only wondering is whether the entering of the Dream Realm could be started by something that's almost like an unbinding, but a dream-unbinding kind of thing. I was thinking that someone who isn't a worshipper could be introduced into the Dreaming by a current Dream Walker, but the unbinding would be a "test" or a dream-walk quest or something.

Hey, maybe the first time should be that for everyone, come to think of it. Just random thoughts. But this looks great!! It's really exciting!
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Old July 22, 2008, 03:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hay'aan- I think so too. It shouldn't be a case of "I want to learn dream walking," finding some random teacher in city X and them teaching the skill just like its your regular trade or combat training. Given the intimate relation this has with Kaimelea and Risthal, and the fact that both actively seek waking dreamers within their realm, I would say that they actually find potential dream walkers first, and then set them some form of test.

I'm not sure if the test should be a standard thing or differ from person to person...If there are a lot of people trying to learn this skill it could get trying on moderators to think up something different for each one. (:

So...anyone could be introduced to the skill by a current dream walker, but would they be able to properly learn? I don't think either Kaimelea or Risthal would appreciate non-worshippers just waltzing in and messing with their realm...maybe have some way to block them off? Switch off the dream walker's abilities, so to speak?

Thank you for responding to this!
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Old July 22, 2008, 06:37 PM   #8 (permalink)
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<nods> Maybe if they're already worshippers, then the dream-test would have a more clear layout / goal than if not or something.

Maybe if they're a worshipper, the dream-test could be in the form of an "interview" almost - a dream where their greatest fears, greatest triumphs etc are all laid in front of them and they must... I dunno, answer to each one?

Whereas if they aren't worshippers, then the test might be more a "waking nightmare" sort of thing?

And I think an interesting question would be what happens if the pc is found unworthy? Would a worshipper get a rap on the knuckles and told to go away, whilst the non-worshipper, taking the bigger risk, might end up scarred / losing the ability to dream / mad etc?

as for the skills tree - i think that works really well. I also like the idea of the body being vulnerable whilst the walker is walking in the dreaming. Their body is open and, unless protected, could get inhabited by some random creature who is slipping past in another plane? Does that even begin to make sense...?

Nearly midnight here - excuse the ramble!
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Old July 22, 2008, 09:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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It could also perhaps be a reward, for those who actively worship Kaimelea/Risthal? I think that if someone has already shown that they worship the planetar IC, then it should be easier for them to enter the dream realm and learn to do all this stuff. I think all of this dream walking stuff should be easier for worshippers to do. As you said, I think a greater risk should be involved for non-worshippers…Imagine what Risthal for one would do if she caught people messing around like that in her realm!

So saying, I love the idea of a punishment for that. Doomed to having nightmares, or trapped inside them?

I love the idea that your body could get taken over whilst the dreamer is walking the dream realm. Perhaps it is at risk from the negative aspect of the person’s subconscious mind? That could be interesting.

No worries about the ramble, I’m loving the discussion!
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Old July 22, 2008, 09:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The thing is, I don't think a Dream Walker/Weaver would actually introduce Dream Walking/Weaving to a non-believer. They'd be very careful in who they taught the skill too, making the faith foremost. So I'd think a non-believer wouldn't ever be able to learn this skill. This would be acceptable only if other faiths and religions had their own skill sets available only to their followers.

Also for the skill tree, I have some additional ideas since we are sorta working through some of this in thread without a writeup in the compendium right now. Mystic is doing an awesome job. He's got a blurb hes taught my PC on the DreamScape (?) which is a grey world thats an inbetween space traversing the Material to the Plane of Dreams. You might want to add this in.

Level 1... a dream form name as well. I don't think anyone would work under their real name in the Plane of Dreams. The reason would be the same for having the form. I'd also see something like a dreamweaver having woven their reverie members, friends, family, lovers, etc into a single strand so they can find them and dream together fairly easily. Maybe able to give a mark of some sort that makes them super easy to find? To those that know the mark and can recognize it.

I have other ideas for the upper levels and will post them later.
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Old July 22, 2008, 10:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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So it is a requirement that you be a worshipper then. But then there is always the ‘what if?’ What if a dream walker does try to introduce someone to this? What if the actually try to teach it? Is there some kind of block that only exists for non-worshippers? Should the actual ‘test’ for starting to learn this skill involve removing this block, in something similar to arcane and unbinding?

The dream form name seems reasonable to me, and easy enough to add into first level. I like the idea of being able to find other people like that as well, other dream walkers that you know of whilst walking within the dream realm. Strands imply a connection, though…could that perhaps be a danger as well? Anyone who finds you can follow the threads to your friends/relations there too?

A mark…I don’t know about. Makes me think of a symbol, and I’m not sure of how that would work. Something more like a tracking beacon/locator that can call select dreamers to you?

I’ll give the thread with Mystic a read, and incorporate everything brought up in here into what will hopefully be a decent First Draft.

Thank you for the comments. (:
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Old July 23, 2008, 02:52 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I think the dream realm is a completely seperate plane of existance from just dreaming. Kind of like a hub between dreams. Only fallowers of the dream planitars would be gifted the ability to serve their demi-gods by entereing into the dream realm. And they would be serving by believing that the other group of fallowers are there to muck things up.

The dream planetears only have power by those that believe in them, so if a person doesnt believe in them then there is no way for them to enter a realm that they don't empower with thier beliefs. If that makes anysence? It only exists because I think it does. If i don't think it does, then it doesnt exist. I think, there for I am, sort of mentality. Using this makes it impossible for a non believer to learn the skill.

Just my quick suggestion on the idea.
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Old July 23, 2008, 10:40 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't think you should make it for only believers for 2 reasons. As it does take place in a seperate realm, but can also interact with those in the natural realm, makes it seem a bit unfair...

1) Think of this way. Suppose (impossible, yes, but for argumentative sake, pretend...) the Ayleria staff has uncapped my PC's skill levels. I am a Grandmaster in Sword and Dagger and a couple of others, as well as an Archmage in several different spheres. However, I am not a follower of either Kaimela or Risthal. All a true believer has to do is study enough Dream-Walking and they can easily kill me, and I have no defense against it? True, I might choose not to study Dream-Walking, but I think that the option still should be there. In all of the Factions or abilities that rely on certain Beliefs to even obtain, at least non-believers have some sort of way to defend themselves against it.

If non-believers can't learn it, than at least I think there needs to be something said for the powers of lucid dreaming as a possible defense. I mean, even Freddy Kreuger got owned.

2) Also, a boy growing up on a farm may never be taught how to grow crops, but he can eventually figure it out. The same, in my opinion, should go for Dream-Walking. Since everyone dreams, doesn't it make sense that someone at some point has broken through and walked through dreams, without being a faithful follower?
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Old July 23, 2008, 11:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Kaimelea, in my opinion, would not allow a non-believer into the Dream Realm.

However, I could see Risthal doing this. I think if a non-believer tries to Dream Walk, there should be the large chance for corruption from Risthal who would wish to use them for her own nefarious purposes.

Oh, and another random thought: what if the test for a potential Dream Walker was to test their faithfulness to Kaimelea? We could go with the "faith will protect you" angle and so, the first thing to do will be to test just how faithful they are... if they are found wanting or doubt Kaimelea, then they won't be barred from the Dream Realm, but they still won't be taught further until they prove themselves (at least by anyone worshipping Kaimelea). However, they could go to the "dark side" so to speak and be picked up by Risthal's people?

And in response to Apakai's worry: I think the realization that it's just a dream would be enough to save your character. I'm sure we've all had those dreams in real life where we were getting chased by some bad guy or about to be killed when we realized it was just a dream and desperately tried to wake up before the final blow fell... *shrugs*

EDIT: I also think there should be a different skill tree for Kaimelea's Dream Walkers and Risthal's Dream Walkers because they would have different focuses, goals, etc. so their skills should be slightly different.
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Old July 23, 2008, 12:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A quick IMHO as far as killing goes: it's level 5. Archmages or Grandmasters that really want you dead and plan appropriately shouldn't find it that much harder to end your life.
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