[Roundtable] Skills and Training

[Lyssoryl]

I'm afraid I remain unconvinced about the training thread business. I grant you that in some cases it is best for your roleplaying if you research the skill, but I don't see why that translates into a need to pump out long threads on the topic (no rug-making pun intended). This is a game, not an online class, and there needn't be quizzes. If you cannot use your skill in an interesting way, well you are the primary victim of that deficeny, no one else needs to read your stuff.

[Janis Windrough]

Is our system really that broken?

I really really like training threads even though they almost always go awful and take forever for me. I think they have a lot of value and are a great benchmark for the player. I also personally despise self modding for anything higher then level 2 training in any skill at all. Period. I also think that reading a tome or whatever is a great substitute for an initiate level thread but shouldn't be used for anything higher. Maybe an exp point but never a solid level up. My last point would be that is our current system that broken? I mean, I think it works well enough. So long as someone isn't taking advantage of loopholes to run up a skill super fast i'm pretty ok with how things work now (besides self modding...ew)

[Amarillo]

Hmmm.
Personally (or is the correct term "characteristically"?), my player characters have used training as a means of self-enlightenment. I've also participated in threads as a full-fledged moderator, back in the day. Any thread - whether it be training-based or experiential - has been not simply about the topic of the training (for example Initiate Song, or Basic Shortsword, or any other "level-oriented" skill) - but about recognizing and developing character in both the player characters AND the NPCs I'm responsible for.

When approaching things in this fashion, training isn't simply "training" ... it's experience. I'd have to say the "true path" would be most akin to the methods employed by Serion D'Rinishad over the eras. And it's proven to be pretty darn enjoyable from the perspective of both the player AND the moderator.

Does tome learning apply to all skills? Yes, to a certain degree. It could be as simplistic as "Don't grab the pointy end of the thingummy ... that's for the other guy!". It could also be a scroll containing the ingredients and explanantion of gestures/vocalizations required for a certain arcane action. Or it may even be a PARTIAL explanation ... requiring further roleplay to figure out the relevant details and allowing the character to thereby personalize the skill to both style and situation.

Should the tome approach be a means for the upper reaches of skill ina profession? No - that level of ability is based on pratical experience and a level of writing that illustrates the learning curve sufficiently to ensure that the player reward is forthcoming from the moderator with the decision-making responsibility. Every moderator is different - as is every player character. Don't tar all of us (whichever side of the keyboard we're currently operating on) with the same brush. One of these days, you might get the chance to be on the flip side of things, and THEN what will you do?

Passion and eloquence are prerequisites for a good life-changing thread (which is, in my opinion, the basic nature of training - the desire to change things in some fashion). It may - or may not - involve fast-paced action ... but it WILL involve self-discovery at some level. And of course, personality.

Believe it or not, my most basic tenet is that one can only get out what one is willing to put in. If the player character (or the mod!) is not willing to invest in the training process, OF COURSE it will seem boring ... perhaps even to the point of being recognized as an exercise in futility. On the other hand, investing of oneself into a storyline is never without reward ... just as it is never without risk.

My vote is positive for the tome approach ... as long as it is a roleplayed scenario where some self-realization occurs. And it is recognized as an ALTERNATIVE method to the tried-and-true training (purely experiential or otherwise) we've become so used to seeing in Aelryia's forums.

[Zaenaeyrs]

I say make the training part of a larger event. Yes have them mentored but then have them go out and use the skill so its not just 'mentor' + 'student' =skill. Mentor should take student out on a training exersize (or an adventure to utilize the skill)

[Chargul]

I propose the following actual rule changes or clarifications:

The number of threads you can earn xp in is effectively unlimited. If it's reasonable for you to earn xp, you will.

The number of formal level up threads you can have is limited to two, possibly one. By formal, I mean to say that no level up thread should really be necessary for most basic skills, with a few exceptions. However, a training thread should still count as a level-up thread, even for basic. Arcana training will always require a level-up thread.

This will make achieving basic slightly easier (which is good) and only make actual level-up threads necessary for lvl 2 and onwards, which is also good. At the same time, people are almost as limited as they are now, but are given more freedom when they are just starting out - It won't hurt your development to learn how to swing a sword if you're still below basic, if you're also trying to become a politician with great herbalism skills, for example. It is only later that you will have to decide between the sword, the pen and the plant.

How does that sound?

[Akirak Azuh Iko]

Learning a skill (level 1), to using the skill, to improving on that skill (to the next level), to mastering a skill (Level 5). It would be a fairely long process within Aelyria, and IRL. Changes could be made to improve and speed up the learning cycle, to what extend would be the best. It would only be player's nature, especially new players, who finds that learning is 'way too slow', even after we have speed up the learning cycle.

Taking points from here and there, could I just input the following as my two penny worth of questions and my own answers.

Level 1: 2 XP
Question. I am a new player, and just purchase a sword. I swing it around in an approved peer modded adventure (1xp), then swing it again around for another adventure. (1xp). Now, can I consider myself to be a level 1 swordsman?

Answer I would believe I would say, NO. Anyone could swing a sword. but only a swordsman knows enough tactics, and strokes to effectively use a sword. Saying thus, would it mean that the difference between level 0 to level 5 is the effectiveness and efficientness of one using the skill? I believe so.

Thus, to promote to level 1, I would propose no change in anything. Learning from a tome, from a master, from pure hardwork and sudden inspirations, that are fully RP out would be a good idea. It would be best if a swordsman know the difference between a thrust and a swing, how to stand and evade... The basics...

Question. I'm a level 1 now. *yay* Now, I need 4 more xp to 'promote' I will join 4 peer modded threads, use my skills, and get it approve. Then to level 3, same method, and etc. Level 5 possible?

Answer. This would be the part that would prove to be most uninteresting to many... Getting to level 5. Currently, I may have 6xp, and still be a level 1, as I have not 'completed my leveling thread'. After much much longer time, I have 100xp, and may still be a level 1. Unfair? I found it somewhere, that xp gives a better edge over others with lower xp, and the level just meant that, 'I know more than you, in terms of knowledge, but may not be in experience'

Might I suggest, to level from lvl1 to lvl3, one would just require xp, and approval from a mod. The mod might check how the individual gained the xp. Did he just swing and defeated enemies? Or did he defeated enemies, got defeated, read a book, recieved a pointer, participated in a massive army training, and won an epic villian in a bout. If one, just defeated enemies, after enemies, the mod might consider not giving the swordsman the level, until he defeated much much more... (eg. A 100xp level 2?). For the latter case, even if he had barely 6xp. Who can say he's not ready for leveling right?

So I would beg to differ from Chargul's view. We need an actual leveling thread for Level 1, level 4 and level 5. For level 2 and level 3, one can level up using an actual leveling thread, or by requesting a mod to check through their previous experiences and approve a level up.

This rule, might I add, cannot be used for arcana students, for they do need different masters, and their masters to train them in that level spell.

[Chargul]

I think you're overestimating just how much basic involves.

Basic really is "Can you swing your sword, dodge an attack and parry a blow?" Where a lot of basic training is actually going into the intermediate stuff such as stances to improve dodging, parrying and attacking. This is why the basic training usually gives 2xp, as opposed to an adventure giving you 1xp and requiring two threads to get basic.

But getting basic, as is, is too much of a hassle for no real value.

[Lyssoryl]

Personally, I think that it's a mistake to worry too much about realism in a roleplaying game. Playability should come first.

If you think about it, the amount of time it takes to learn a skill in the real world varies wildly from skill to skill. How long does it take to go from not knowing how to play a musical instrument to being good enough with one to earn a living as a musician? In real life, it would take years. Skills like weilding a sword would be much quicker to learn. But in order to make the game work, you can't really demand that people start with no training and then take long era to learn anything, it just wouldn't work. And to have a different training time for each skill would require someone to list all possible skills and make a determination. Too much work for no tangible benefit.

Most of my training threads have taken months and months of real time. Sometimes they are fun, often I am just pumping out a post to meet a requirement, which seems an odd sort of thing to have to do for a game that I am ostensibly playing for fun. The parts that I have enjoyed usually involve witty conversations with interesting NPC teachers. I don't think that the stuff where you describe your character doing the things that the teacher just told you to do adds anything to the game, and could be done without.

[Duvel]

Might I suggest, to level from lvl1 to lvl3, one would just require xp, and approval from a mod.

Adventures can count as a level up if you show in the thread you have grown in your skill, so all you really need is mod approval

But getting basic, as is, is too much of a hassle for no real value.

Basic isn't without value. I imagine most guards would have only a basic level in their arms, while the second level would be more for professional soldiers.

[Chargul]

Originally Posted by Duvel

Adventures can count as a level up if you show in the thread you have grown in your skill, so all you really need is mod approval

Indeed. However, is there not a limit of two training/level up threads at once? What happens if I, in an adventure, accidentally level up in one skill, while I am training two others?

Basic isn't without value. I imagine most guards would have only a basic level in their arms, while the second level would be more for professional soldiers.

This is true. When I meant without value, I mean to assume that a PC > NPC and therefore, having basic is being equal to an NPC. This is why I was saying that the value in basic is less than the work put into it, usually. There are plenty of NPCs out there with basic, yet somehow, it can take some people a month or two to get an equivelant skill (the only skill this character has, for example, came from a starting package. This is not due to lack of trying, mind, but I am thankful that it's being worked on ).

Also, people don't always regard actual skill levels as that important. As an architect, I've already been asked to design a hangar. As far I as know, that's way beyond Chargul's ability, but this isn't going to stop me from trying. Also, while I can see a mod looking at my skill in this event, I think the deciding factor in the end isn't whether I am basic or intermediate (so long as simple designs are used), bu whether or not I have written good descriptions that function.

[Duvel]

I doubt you'd level up accidentally. People generally know when they are doing a level up adventure.

Also, people don't always regard actual skill levels as that important.

That's actually an argument against changing the current set up. No need to spam skills IMHO if in the actual RP is more important. You don't need levels in everything you try. Add a possible skill from a starting package and you can already have something nice to start from.

[Seregon]

Vedui' One & All,

So, I thought I would poke my head in and see how this discussion was playing out, because I currently have a pc who would like to use a book in the basic training of poison control and the creation of poisons.

He doesn't want to gain xp from simply reading the book; he wants to use it as a tool to dabble in the craft, in private. So, he would be practicing the skill, in a lab-like setting, as he reads from the text. I would imagine he wouldn't want to include another person in this type of training because they would most likely question why he would want to learn such a deadly skill.

Personally, I think this route makes sense. Sometimes private training is a must and it works out perfectly with certain characters and certain skills. I guess I just want to make sure he doesn't do all of this hard work for it to only be a massive waste of time. He's open to it being a very challenging training thread, with numerous mistakes made along the way, which is a good sign in my eyes. It means he is taking the training seriously.

Any additional thoughts or opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

Diola lle & Namaarie,
Seregon

[Oceanus]

I'm not sure there is any issue of Book versus Trainer in the example given by Seregon (ponders why Seregon always has good examples lol).

I mean either way you must go out and seek something, either way you must work with something, and either way you much expand your rp ability and knowledge of the skill. You still need approval for exp, so gms should be reviewing the thread in the end anyway. So I don't see a issue.

As for basic, I can say quite a few players have made good use of basic skill. By your very essence as a pc you are learning a better level of basic then the rudimentary guard. If a basic pc faces a basic npc and uses skill properly they should win. Remeber it is your uniqueness in scenarios, adventures, and even training that makes you a PC.

Just some thoughts.

[Crimson]

Show them my motto!

Training your PC on Aelyria should not take long enough for you to start hitting your head against the keyboard, mumbling incoherently.

That's the bottomline isn't it?

So you want it fast. That depends on the mod.

You want it fun. That also depends on the mod.

You want it exciting, creative. That depends on the mod, too.

So why not mod yourself? Level 1 - Level 3 can be self moderated. Unlike Janis (who is a cool guy ) I fully support self moderation. It's the only way YOUR training will get done GUARANTEED, on your terms, by your 'standards' of fun-ability, etc.

Of course, you'd have to speak with your local GM You're not going to be fighting dragons for +9524568 experience

With that said, our system works. But there are just many ways to work it.


Note 1:

Level 1 Training threads, especially those that aren't "adventurous" (IE: knitting, speech, history, etiquette, etc) can be done in 10 posts. Seriously. Just go over the details. TELL THE STORY. It can be fun!

Note 2:

"Active" training threads (IE: swordfighting, Arcana, acrobatics, stealth) is much easier to make 'interesting' for yourself (or others). Throw yourself (the person you're modding) into a situation and 'teach' them as they figure out a way to solve their dilemma.

Note 3.

"Practice" threads may be boring, but I've discovered that if you make the thread an 'interaction' thread first, then peer moderate it -- then ALL of you can potentially get at least 1 exp out of it Again, HAVE FUN. ENJOY the threads you're in. If you see threads as stone blocks you're slamming your head against to get to the other side, then you'll burn out and maybe even experience hair loss.

Seriously.

[Lyssoryl]

I find self-modded threads to be hideously painful. I enjoy Aelyria because of the interaction with other people, and writing 10 posts about basketweaving seems like total busywork to me.

I'm certainly not against having it be allowed to people who don't mind, but it really isn't for me.