[Realmcraft] Resolution to the Sherian War

[Jamie Almari]

At Juan’s bidding, I’ve decided that this thread is appropriate towards the Realmcraft and that everyone involved in the Sherian War situation is invited to be involved. Although I’ll be primarily PMing the moderators, any player involved in the war is welcome to share their ideas and work this out in a civil and cordial fashion.

Basically, what Kaelon believes we’ve run into, and what I agree with, is a situation that has turned into something of a stalemate. We have a plot that nobody seems eager to finish out, passed along the hands of several (three to four) moderators for something that has taken entirely too long OOCly and now has lost interest in the game. Lost interest to the point where it has begun breeding some negative comments, emotions, what have you.

Largely, what I see here is several bits of miscommunication. As Juan mentioned in chat, what we have is players who are seeking a desperate end to something that has gone on entirely too long without substantial interest trying to do things radically IC, and GMs whom are trying to induce risk-versus-reward scenarios. The miscommunication has occurred on several channels, pretty much between everyone – myself included. One of the things that hit home to me when Juan was speaking was when he mentioned we have players rampantly changing gameplay IC without saying why, and GMs whom are deleting posts/threads/what have you without saying why. That, I feel, is the major point of miscommunication between all of us involved.

Juan has advised we OOCly realmcraft the Sherian War to find a neutral resolve that will be acceptable to everyone; so…the word compromise comes to mind. Hazbones is on a six-week vacation according to Kaelon so I do not think it necessary to sit and wait for former moderators to return, especially since the newer ones have assumed control/moderation over the entire war anyways. I think it’s pretty clear we need an “OOC pow-wow” (as he put it ) to clean up this mess.

Although my PC isn’t invested heavily into this war, he does play a minor role in it, and I would ask that everyone who posts here be willing to compromise and sort this out in a courteous fashion. We’re all mature players here, so flaming and pissing contests won’t be tolerated on any level. That’s within the handbook’s rules anyways.

As Juan said, I think it is a testament to how well Alleria is developed that in a war that is fought for a lengthy period of time eventually becomes pyrrhic, with no real “winner”.

[Erenthril Mael'tharias]

...I'm sorry to say I've already made an error in the creation of this thread by not clicking the switch-account button. Oops, my mistake! Hopefully this is good reason to laugh and ridicule me and get us off to a jovial start, haha.

The above PC is my ill-known secondary.

[Eyvind Redbeard]

I guess I will make the honors here. *eyes Eren: tsk tsk * I think everyone involved already knows what happened IC and what didn't happen and so on so...let's sit and discuss a viable way out. I'll speak for my PC who is currently commanding the eastern forces.

We're on full retreat, so I guess it's like Brandon said, we are in a stalemate, the superior numbers of the Imperial and Provincial Forces can't break through the Orcish defenses nor vice-versa so I believe it's time for peace talks, unless that is if everyone decides to RC battles and sieges, which would also give some flavor to History although would mean more time of discussing and pondering.

I don't really have much more to say because I don't know very well how we all stand in this.

[Kaelon]

As an observer (whose only interest is the harmony of players and concord of moderators), I think the truth is that this conflict is a storyarc that got away from everyone. It changed moderator hands so many times, that the story itself became stale and unengaging; and, as work was poured into it, moderators had to build a risk and rewards paradigm, which further added to the frustration and anxiety of everyone involved, who basically just wanted to see this story concluded. So, while everyone bears some of the responsibility for how things got to such a heated situation in Sherian, I think that everyone has the potential to resolve this pretty swiftly and fairly.

Here's my opinion on one way in which a middle compromise might be reached between players and moderators involved in this war:

Clearly, war is a horrible circumstance, and it scars both peoples and the land on which they live. It is evident that the Orcs have gained a tactical victory which ensures their continued autonomy and freedom. Yet, Orcs do not conquer and occupy lands, so their strategic objectives -- to route the Empire -- was probably met with mixed success. On the one hand, a few villages and towns fell to Orckish might, but on the other hand, it is evident that the Imperial Legions are disintegrating amidst a combination of disarray and attritution, rumors and trickery, and general war weariness and battle fatigue. Speaking with players and moderators historically involved, I date this war having officially begun on the 10th Day of Winter, and ended on the 16th Day of Winter with Imperial Retreat. Given the real likelihood that Imperial Withdrawal would plunge the Sherian into a deeper Civil War and regional crisis, it seems to me that there would be some sort of quiet resolution among the parties that (a) the Orcs in Orckon have earned their right to exist, free from incursion and worthy of respect; and (b) the Sherian must enter into an accord recognizing Orckish autonomy, in order to have the time to lick their wounds and rebuild. Much of the Sherian and its countryside is, undoubtedly, in utter ruin, with pockets of chaos still ensuing. But in this darkest of shadows in the midst of winter, a ray of hope about a peaceful and more prosperous tomorrow must be looming over the tired citizens of this region.

Thoughts?

[Eyvind Redbeard]

So the Province is now divided in two, on the left side the Orcish Assembly (correct me if this isn't the proper name) and on the right side the Confederation of Sheria, a Province of the Aelyria Empire (New Kingdom). The corridor between these two realms is more of less what we can call the Sherianite Wasteland.

As for Military Forces involved the Imperial Legions brought from other Provinces would return home while perhaps one of the two Sherian Legions would be reassigned elsewhere since the province has now a Provincial Army. Said army would suffer a demobilization of let's say 50% of its members reducing from 100.000 to 50.000 men. It is still a large number of soldiers as it is obvious that chaos has to be put down, not to mention perhaps the distrust towards the Orcs.

On the Orcish side I don't see the need to the demobilization of troops since Orcs are natural warriors, although whatever peace treaty that is sign might refer to it. But it's not my business for I am the man of war, not the man of the peace treaties.

Regarding the civilian population I see some migrations, away from the affected areas and probably some away from the province itself. Enamoria would probably be the best place for them to go since its population suffered much with the Pox. Cities like Arconis and Acumin could receive refugees therefore helping the growth of the cities.

As for the civil turnmoil that the province might enter I don't know.

These are just thoughts really.

[Kaelon]

So, the Orcs conquered and occupied Narim, Hiems, Peda, etc.? Or, did it merely subdue local forces and place it under its "sphere of control" for the purposes of the war? If the latter, I can see most of the entirety of Sherian remaining sovereign territory of Aelyria (with the Orcs reasserting their indisputable autonomy in Orckon); otherwise, if they actually occupied land resulting in a territorial loss to Aelyria, it might result in the storyline escalating to Prince Milo in Aelyria Prime for possible widespread retaliation. And I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that the last thing we need is an excuse to draw out this story any further, so... yes, those are my thoughts on this.

[Llanwyn Siannodel]

I really respect the fact that this thread has been put up and this situation is being addressed by third parties and of course by Kaelon... I believe this is the only way anything will get fixed.

I'm afraid Llanwyn being apart of this war has only made it worse. He declared the conflict in Sheria a holy war, though this was never released to the Herald. He was waiting for a victory to announce this, but at this point maybe it's better that it's never announced.

With that being said, in a thread in the Sherian wilderness, Llanwyn informs Eyvind that he will be taking control of the legions. Since this will only drag things out further, I'm going to edit to instead only offer help in any way I can.

[Eyvind Redbeard]

The Orcs already controlled Narim and Autumnus before we started this war, if they will remain in the now occupied cities is up to Steve and Gauls really. But even if they did continue occupying these locations and even a few more I don't really see a need to have Milo involved.

It's like...the Empire attacked and failed to defeat the opposing force and therefore lost control over some cities, towns, villages and countryside. This could be developped IC with more or less permanent border skirmishes but not a war. Such Skirmishes could give much RP opportunities to players and mods but not the problems of Total War.

[Malkaer Andares]

In my opinion what Kaelon proposes is not a compromise but a solid orcish victory. It fulfills Ire’s main strategic goals: to be recognized and to keep what they conquered and now hold occupied (the orcish ‘homelands’: Narim, etc.). Perhaps they did not defeat the Imperials as decisively as they would have liked, but the result is still good. The Imperials on the other hand get nothing. They do not regain the lands lost and have to suffer the humiliation of recognizing Ire. I do not think an orcish success of that magnitude is justified when considering the efforts on part of the players or when comparing the strength of both parties.

For one you say Kaelon that the ‘the Imperial Legions are disintegrating amidst (…) general war weariness and battle fatigue’ when not even one major battle has taken place. The only people with war fatigue are the players behind the PC’s, but there is no cause whatsoever for any NPC’s to lay down the sword. Or at least, not for professional soldiers as Imperial legionnaires.
Furthermore the Imperial Legions did not retreat but made a strategic withdrawal. This was by any means a logical choice on part of Eyvind because no sane general conducts an offensive campaign in winter and should be perfectly acceptable by the soldiers under his command.
There is also no base for war exhaustion for the Sherian provincial government as the essential resources to make war have not been significantly damaged. When Anvael became Governor the province was in real danger because there was nothing that could stop the orcs from marching to Taralon. In the summer and autumn of Era XIV Anvael and Malkaer build up an arms industry and a provincial army, the Sherian Serpents. At the end of winter it will have a field strength of fifty thousand men. Why would the province accept a humiliating defeat as the one proposed if its odds have increased compared to the summer of last era?
Lastly it does not do justice to the time and effort a number of players has invested in this storyarc.

A real compromise in my opinion would look like this:

- A truce is signed between both parties.
- The Empire recognizes Ire as a foreign state and develops official foreign.
- Ire retreats from the areas it has occupied, but is allowed to retain a safety buffer around Ire.

[Erenthril Mael'tharias]

Hmm, I like how the discussion is progressing in a civil manner and whatnot.

I don't have much time at the moment (getting suited up for an indoor game! ) but I would like to just point out Malkaer, that...well, that's basically how it was for the Orcs before the war. What with Ire being 'distant' and all and the whole safety buffer whatnots. It wouldn't seem rather fair to the Orc NPCs if everything just reverted back to how it was.

Why not let them keep Narim and the stretch of land in between? That was a legit takeover, at any rate, and all efforts to siege it have (presuming here) evidentially failed.

[Eyvind Redbeard]

I have to say I didn't think things the way Malk did and that he is correct.

Aside of a skirmish that involved 500 Imperials no other battle was fought and like Malkaer said, there will be fifty thousand Provincials ready by the end of Winter and other fifty thousand on the making, troops could be replaced in the frontline as time passed so the armies aren't tired at all. I'd even add some things to the compromise.

- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are considered the guilties of any act of hostility taken before, during and after the war.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are considered the guilties of starting, proliferating and continuing the war.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are to pay tribute to the Confederation of Sheria and to the Aelyrian Empire for the damages caused before, during and after the war.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are to help rebuilding the Confederation of Sheria with no expenses being charged on the Provincial Government of Sheria, on the People of Sheria and/or the Aelyrian Empire.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs must show up in the Sherian Court to answer for Crimes of War, said crimes being perpretrated before, during or after the war.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are forbidden of expanding their area of influence beyond their own borders, both terrestre and maritime.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are forbidden of keeping a standing army of more than twenty thousand soldiers.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are forbidden of possessing any kind of ship, vessel or airship larger than a boat, for both civilian and military purposes.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are to deliver whatever Pirates, Corsairs or Buccaners that might have helped them before, during or after the war to the Provincial Government of Sheria.
- Ire, the Orcish Assembly and the Orcs are to deliver whatever ship, vessel or airship larger than a boat to the Provincial Government of Sheria.
- The Confederation of Sheria and the Aelyrian Empire are considered the winners of the war.

These are just some lines that could be added to whatever treaty that is made. It both gives the Orcs their chance to live and saves the face of the Empire. I would like to outline that Malkaer is the most indicated person to add any other claims to this treaty since he is the man of History and Politics.

[Kaelon]

First, some background on the Orcs. It's important to examine the historical and cultural issues behind Ire. Ire, and the Orckish Assembly, have historically been a cultural state, not a foreign state. When the Orcs signed an alliance with Empress Alyssa Chrysinaria during the Third Empire, they did so with the understanding that they would be given complete cultural autonomy, but they would recognize and defer to the Aelyrian Crown, in a manner similar to how Fae'rel/Kel'rondar has interacted with Aelyria, as well as the other "dependent states" that are semi-autonomous entities dwelling within/underneath Aelyria, but still reliant upon the political and institutional protection of the Realm.

That said, when Empress Alyssa Chrysinaria died, and the Third Empire began to spiral into a series of successive regencies, revolutions, and temporary stewardships, the Orcs began to reassert their independence, and it really wasn't until ambitious Aelyrian adventurers from Narim launched an unprovoked attack on Orckon that tensions were amplified. It is reasonable that the Orcs are fighting out of a sense of honor and pride in their culture, and seek go restore the status quo -- their cultural autonomy. Orcs do not have the civilization institutions or the political will to actually "occupy" areas of land and administer them, so even if they temporarily held chunks of Sherian under their sway during the war, it would be out of character for the Orcs to actually want to hold on to that "worthless scrap of land"; for the Orcs, Orckon is everything. (It is also interesting to note that the only other Orckish "Empire" in history, the Empire of Khardra, was actually more of a goblinoid coercion of Orcs, than an actual Orckish attempt at power -- the latter being something uncharacteristic of the Orckish peoples as a rule.)

So, it still leave us with the general idea of how this situation can be resolved. There are some facts which should be faced about what has been roleplayed (based upon what I have read has happened in the Sherian over the past year in real life):

-- An entire season was spent by both sides engaging in a huge military build-up.

-- An extremely violent explosion of combat, including several quasi/pseudo-battles, resulting in a "strategic withdrawal" of Aelyria's military to populated centers. The Orcs have, in turn, gained influence over non-contiguous swaths of territory in Western Sherian.

-- There is severe war weariness and battle fatigue in an underfunded and exhausted Legions, and it makes sense that, given the institutional problems facing the Third Empire at this stage, the Army would want a quick, decisive resolution to this battle, which it does not appear to be getting. Instead, the Orcs are engaged in entrenchment (for a "long slog", as needed) and the Army has obviously considered the merits of a slash-and-burn withdrawal of the province. Neither of these are reasonable considering the millions of inhabitants in the Sherian, and what the Orcs are actually fighting for.


RESULTS OF THE WAR

Officially, it's a stalemate (which the Empire can spin as a "victory", and the Orcs can spin as their own "victory") that results in returning the Sherian to the status quo -- Aelyrian territories remain Aelyrian, and Orckon regains a sense of independent autonomy, with the promise that Sherian will prevent adventurers or mercenaries from engaging in unauthorized campaigns to try and punish or attack the Orcs. Unofficially, there is no winner; the cost of war has been so high, it has caused a fundamental collapse in the Sherian economy, has disrupted the Orc culture, and threatens to destabilize the delicate political balance of power between civilians and the military on the Sherian itself. If a full treaty is not possible, then a cease-fire returning both sides to the status quo, pending a more official series of negotiations between the Orcs and the Empire/Kingdom (since the "Second Kingdom" will have been founded by the time that the news of this war's outcome reaches Aelyria Prime).


Thoughts?
Juan

[Eyvind Redbeard]

Juan I'd like to remember you that the reasons of the strategic withdrawal was not the fact that the Legions were "tired" it was because of the "godlike" powers of the Orcs. The idea of scorching the province was also an attempt to fight the Orcs "If you can't kill them in battle, kill them in their plates", without food or a place to find more food they'd starve and die.

I don't know what problems the Third Empire has/had but one thing I know, the troops under my command in Sheria were good as new and not battle weary, all they did was really march, set camp, form for battle, withdraw, set camp on fire, march and scorch.

I would have ordered an attack if I had seen any result from a heavy artillery barrage, but since all the might of the legions and the navy couldn't damage a trench I was forced to return to Taralon. Common sense states that if when you hit as hard as the legions have and no damage is done, then let's go back and prepare for the next round, a round in which we will use more powerful weapons. In this case there were no more powerful weapons because not even the mages could do a thing, but it was what would have happened. The more powerful weapon ended to be the scorching of the province, hunger would kill more Orcs than a sword. All I've seen was soldiers rebelling...

[Kaelon]

Good point, Eywind. So, what if the withdrawal is because the Orcs seemed so god-like (possibly something that historians can attribute to "bloodlust battle-rage", or some equally obscure cultural phenomenon)?