Dwarven Society ~ Discussion and Development.

[Erilar]

Dwarven agechart:
Dwarf
Early Childhood 0 -- 25
Middle Childhood 26 -- 55
Late Childhood 56 -- 79
Adolescence 80 -- 95
Young Adulthood 96 -- 149
Recognized as Adult 150
Adulthood 151 -- 349
Middle-aged 350 -- 600
Getting really old 601 -- 699
Very very old 700+

http://www.alleria.com/forums/showth...threadid=41357

[fetch]

Some thoughts on dwarves

There are two distinct cultures of dwarves/dwarfs

1.The night dwarves ~Daelagians ~

2.The dwarfs ~ who live on the surface of Telath

It should be noted that I have deliberately used the two spellings and recommend that we adopt this ruse to identify whom we are talking about in future


The history of the schism between the dwarf /dwarves is vague but it appears to have taken place some 700 areas ago at the time that the emperor annexed Dargis. This period of history seems to have been full of conflict. To protect her inhabitants from orckish attacks, and to prevent further conflict with the Elven Kingdom of Sylrosya the emperor dissolved the Dargis monarchy. It seems likely that “Prendol Dargisti” - the leading council of elders of the dwarves was consulted and agreed to this measure. It is entirely possible that this decision by their own elders caused a break up of the dwarf nation and those that disagreed with the “Prendol Dargisti” moved directly to the upper world and became wanderers spreading right across the fledgling empire.

Therefore I suggest that one enterprising modern dwarf disenchanted with the role of the dwarf within the entire empire starts to argue that the “Prendol Dargisti” is reinstated in the upper world and makes an empire wide call for all dwarf to attend this inaugural meeting

At the same time the announcement that the governor of Centripax, Soc de Ambergois has retired is announced and the “conclave” has a second objective. This being, to find a dwarf to fill this important role or at least to present themselves before the royal couple as a supplicant! This announcement would act as the opening salvo in these threads.

A second Herald article would be written inviting the dwarfs to attend.

At the same time the “Prendol Dargisti” is elected from the leading clan lairds of the dwarf who attend the meeting. The 20 leading clan names can be revealed and placed upon a role of honour for perpetuity in Centripax.

On the question of dwarf names it is interesting that there are in play two types, traditional names, like Copperhand and Ironfist and others like Coulter and Ka–Zaar which appear to reflect the regions they were brought up in. A dwarf is a dwarf and although they live in the upper world of the modern Alleria, I suggest there is a longing to return to a dwarf tradition. Thus the “Prendol Dargisti” should be charged to set down in writing clear dwarf do’s and don’ts, a sort of dwarf etiquette without which true dwarfishness cannot be lived out.

IE
• All dwarfs shall wear as full a beard as they may grow
• All dwarfs shall remember the elf and look upon them with suspicion ~ remember Dargis and the reason for its demise!
• It is the duty of a dwarf to become as wealthy as their individual talents and abilities allow
• A big fellow is the same size when a good axe has cut off his lower legs.
• A half dwarf is an abomination

I am sure there are many more of these!


What is quite clear is that there is no “king of the dwarf “what has happened in the kingdom of Dargis is unknown as it seems to have faded from memory and contact and even if a king has emerged down there he holds no authority in the upper world.

The conclave would be the first of many such meetings it need not be a formal sitting group rather that it presides over dwarf matters as and when it is needed. It most certainly could be a representative of the dwarf and swear fealty to the emperor on behalf of all dwarfs. But as these oaths are sworn by provinces and the dwarf are whole hearted members of their chosen provinces any provincial oath is binding.

Once the “Prendol Dargisti” is sitting it would seem reasonable to invite the dwarves of Dargis to attend. Whether such a thing would be possible is another matter!
As always critique is welcomed

[Mimesis]

eh... and something I forgot... but ages are counted in patterns, while the calendar goes by eras. So races live 3 times as long, in terms of the calendarical system, as I had thought. *is dismayed*

[Dunlaith Strongaxe]

This is my first dwarf pc and prior to her I had little knowledge of dwarfs. I read the race section about them and that was about it.

I've learned a great deal for this thread and I am thankful that I was pmed to join it!

I think that it would make sense to have a strong clan system with a number of major clans that all minor clans are a part of. I think the number of minor clans should be limitless though as to not stifle pc creativity. I also feel that it would make more sense to have a dwarven king even if he was just a figure head. I see dwarven pride as unwavering and for me that extends to the political world even if the king just nods and smiles with everything the emperor does as long as he is competent by dwarven standards he would remain king.

Clan names: I do not feel that a dwarf would soley adopt the name of the more powerful clan but would instead include it with the minor clans name. For example: Dunlaith Strongaxe Minith. To, me, it would make more sense to acknowledge the clan that the indivisual dwarf had more clout in. So, if Dunlaith did more in the Minith clan, it would be Minith Strongaxe. I do not think the dwarf would want to get rid of the second name either because it would either be the name of the more powerful clan or the name of the clan that, that dwarf came from and I see dwarfs as having pride in their roots. Like hey I came from this little clan but now I lead it and look how much more powerful it is! or hey look I came from this smaller clan but made great strides in this larger clan!

Also, besides ones name, what about colors? Ribbons in the beard? Certain beard/hair styles/clothing? etc etc etc.

What are womens roles? As far as I can tell a female dwarf can be just as fierce if not more so but does this just count on the battlefield or does it extend to the political arena? Maybe I just missed some reading on these things? If so, kindly point me in the right direction hehe.

[Coulter Minith]

Overview.
I have been talking about this thread and its context with numerous people within chat over the last couple of weeks, and have come to the conclusion that with all this information, ideas and suggestions people have given in this thread that it should really be written down, and added to the compendium. Therefore, unless anyone else wants to write this subject up, I am going to do a write-up for the culture section of the Compendium when these issues have been finalised.

I would also like people, it you would not mind, when discussing a certain issue/topic within this thread can you please place a header at the start of each new issue/topic you are talking about. This is so that people can easier keep track of the different conversations that are occurring within this thread.

I am over the next few weeks going to go over all the issues that are being discussed within this thread. I will also give a quote to the current ideas upon that subject, so that everyone it up to date, and can give their opinions and suggestions upon that topic/subject.


Clan Laird Structure.

The Clan System of the Dwarven Race is a vast and complex subject that would take any member of a non-dwarven race patterns to deceiver and understand. It is believed that all dwarven clans originated from a select number of dwarven clans far back into the depth of time, and that though the ages, as different situations came about, those original dwarven clans kept splitting and splitting to form different clans. This process is still occurring nowadays.

Every member of the dwarven race belongs to a Clan, usually a clan that has split with his or her ancestral clan, and as such there are thousands upon thousands of Dwarven Clans of one size or another within the Allerian Empire. However, although there are uncountable dwarven clans, the majority of clans are classed as ‘minor’ clans, which number in the regions of 10's to 100's dwarfs. These ‘minor’ clans for reasons of tradition and family own their allegiance to a ‘major’ clan, or there ancestral original clan.

These ‘major’ clans of the dwarven race number in the region of twenty clans, and are usually primarily found within the ancestral dwarven cities of the Centripax Province of the Allerian Empire, or in other cities were there is a high population of dwarfs. Although they are limited to their particular geographical locations for historical reasons, every major dwarven cities has a representative of all major clans present within their walls.

Areas of Discussion upon this subject/topic:-
-Why are the twenty major dwarven clans, major and not minor?

-How can a minor clan develop into a major clan?

-Do the minor clans had to pay taxes, for lack of a better word, to their major clan, and/or do the minor clans receive money/support from their major clan to help themselves develop?

-Is it possible for a minor clan to have other minor clans sworn to them, and through them to their major clan?

-Any other area anyone has about this section.

[Dunlaith Strongaxe]

So far I think the write it is great. Ok...lets see...this is my take on the discussion points...

Why are the twenty major dwarven clans, major and not minor?

They should be major because they have several things: 1. They stayed in relatively the same area so their numbers have not dramatically flucuated through time. 2. The minor clans that they consist of have remained the same for a really really really long time. 3. They can trace their blood lines to important dwarfs of the past. 4. Their stability should ensure wealth, poltical power within the empire, religious positions of power, and a strangle hold on all business's that dwarfs dominate.

How can a minor clan develop into a major clan?

I think that the words 'major clan' should be synomyous with the expression 'set in stone' in the dwarven psyche. I think that stability should be the main source of greatness for with stability everything else falls into place. Yet, in times where that stability is challenged there should be loop holes for whole clans to rise up the power ladder. Though, to me, normally not whole clans but indivisuals should be the ones who move within the clan structure. Say, Dunlaith right now is just in a dinky minor clan but lets pretend she gets a manopoly in brewing in c-burg. Since the lands are enchanted her output would be greater and her business would become greater. Lets say she doesn't flop. Once other dwarves in c-burg catch wind of the sucess they come knocking at the door pledgeing loyality. That's how it should work to me. Dwarves want to shift to power and success and follow that. So when a minor clan starts to become successful other minor clans try to hop on the band wagon. The amount of success and the amount of dwarves in the area should be the cap on the minor clans growth. Say clan strongaxe does well, but there are only 1000 dwarves in c-burg. Even if they all join her clan, her clan would still look dinky compared to a major clan in Zerdargia with 10,000 dwarves in it. The major clans should be HUGE and spread out and they should all work for the same goal. I also think that before a minor clan has a chance of unseating one of the main twenty, one of the main twenty would absorb the minor clan into its ranks. If dunlaith only has 1000 dwarfs and clan minith says "hey look how well you are doing! join us! we make twice as much as you and have 10,000 dwarves we want to assimalate all of you!" Clan Strongaxes reply would be "omg yes yes take me now!" lol So then it would change to clan Minith of c-burg as the formal title. So then, since dunlaith lead her clan, she might get a higher seat in clan minith than the rest of the old strongaxe clan. Then if she did really well in minith say clan whoever with 100,000 dwarves may ask her to join them too etc etc. It could be either whole clan assimilation or just indivisuals. Ok...am I even making any sense at this point?

Do the minor clans had to pay taxes, for lack of a better word, to their major clan, and/or do the minor clans receive money/support from their major clan to help themselves develop?

I say yes and yes. All members of a clan should pay dues to their clan. Take little clan strongaxe say it has 20 members. All of them would agree on an amount and pay that per say month. This money would go to furthering the clan and helping its members. If each member is strong then the clan is strong. Then if the minor clan is associated with a major clan they would pay dues to the major clan. Say, clan strong axe is part of a bigger clan and they are threatened by orcs. The bigger clan would send soldiers to help if the local government wont. Thats just an example bug get my drift? I think most of the helping would come in through the form of gaining more business and political power.

-Is it possible for a minor clan to have other minor clans sworn to them, and through them to their major clan?

I say yes. In cities outside of the dwarf homeland I think this would be a nessesity since there would be no major clans near by. Minor clans of equal standing would join to gether in times of need as allies if they do not want to merge for whatever the reason.

-Any other area anyone has about this section.

Yes...I think it is important to note how dwarfs find out this information about eachother. Like I said earlier, either in the name...or through colors...ribbons...beard styles etc. When one dwarf introduces themselves to another they should be giving all this information in order to claim pride. *nods then takes a bow* Ok I'm done lol. Too lazy to spell check...lol

[Erilar]

Why are the twenty major dwarven clans, major and not minor?

1. Respect. The major clans should be respected, for their bloodlines, their wealth (they should be in control of large mines) and their strength of arms but also for their honor and support of the members of the clan and affiliated minor clans. They should also be in control of various important positions across the whole spectrum of society, e.g. culture, religion, law, military.
2. They should be numerous, simply have the strength of arms to defend what they have and take what they want to have if necessary.

How can a minor clan develop into a major clan?

1. Basically they can't.
2. Well ok they can but it would have to take some very extreme events for a minor clan to become a major clan. The minor clan would have to come into position of huge new resources and be able to enlist lots of other minor clans into their service giving them sufficient manpower to become a political player. It should be possible for a very shrewd leader of a minor clan to aquire sufficient wealth and get minor clans to join him but this would of course be viewed as unwanted activity by the established major clans that like things perfectly fine just the way they are.
3. The fall of a major clan (through for example a disastrous war, not very common in the Empire these days) creating a vacuum needing to be filled by a new leader and new dwarves.
4. Just to stress one point, in order for a minor clan to grow they need other minor clans to join them but the clans should be very loyal to the clan they support. A minor clan doesn't just pick up and leave one clan for another without a reason, treason or something of the like would have to take place and that is quite uncommon in dwarven society where honor (at least among dwarves) is stressed so heavily.

Do the minor clans had to pay taxes, for lack of a better word, to their major clan, and/or do the minor clans receive money/support from their major clan to help themselves develop?

*points to Dunlaith*
Basically it should work both ways, like the real government. You pay taxes and get help in various forms.

-Is it possible for a minor clan to have other minor clans sworn to them, and through them to their major clan?

*points to Dunlaith*

-Any other area anyone has about this section.

Thinks that Dunlaith has a point. I think dwarves should be identified by name Their full dwarven name should only be given to other dwarves as it is none of the other races business!

Dwarven biology.
Male dwarves are somewhat stronger than female dwarfs and their beards somewhat longer. Female dwarves are slightly more agile and faster than male dwarf but then again they have shorter beards!!!!!

[Dunlaith Strongaxe]

Their full dwarven name should only be given to other dwarves as it is none of the other races business!

I completely agree!

[Dunlaith Strongaxe]

omg I almost forgot! It is paramount that female dwarfs have the longer beard! I will not waver on this! *looks at erilar and grins*

[Dunlaith Strongaxe]

He edited his post after mine! Female beards are longer! *pouts*

Ok...to add something of a constructive nature....Can I design either a name, color system that helps distinguish between major clans, minor clans, alliances, rivalries etc? Would you mind if I did a write up that we could all mold into a final product together?

[Mimesis]

Why are the twenty major dwarven clans, major and not minor?

1. they are historically descended from important, high-ranking dwarves. 2. they hold a lot of material/man power in the present. I think though that the first reason is the one and only reason that should be taken seriously. Power as such right now might make the clan more influencial, but it shouldn't make it into a major clan that has precedence over the rest. Its like... a very poor Duke still outranks a Knight, and that can't change unless the Duke loses his Dukedom or the Knight becomes a Duke - ie, an extreme and long process.

How can a minor clan develop into a major clan?

As outlined above... I don't think they can. (I think this difference might also hinge on how we define major and minor clans - do we define them by influence, or by precedence in dwarven councils and such? Because I think there is a difference between that)

Do the minor clans have to pay taxes, for lack of a better word, to their major clan, and/or do the minor clans receive money/support from their major clan to help themselves develop?

I don't think that Dwarven society is structured so greatly that Major clans can extort taxes from the minor ones. They are, after all, part of the Allerian Empire and I'd be willing to bet that the Emperor+Senate would not be appreciative of this. (Juan??) And this isn't a Dwarven kingdom after all, its a loose clan system. Moreover I don't see what, in a clan system, gives any clan the right to tax any other clan. I see the clan system as a family/heritage issue above all other concerns.

-Is it possible for a minor clan to have other minor clans sworn to them, and through them to their major clan?

yes, this makes some sense. Though I would see these affiliations as very loose and easily broken if there is pressure applied to it.

Dwarven bio/other info

Yeah, I agree about the recognition, I think Dwarves would be able to recognize the clan of other dwarves merely by their last names. As if, into every dwarven head there is packed some huge book of lineages. So, definitely by their name, probably by their appearance too - if we postulate that each 'clan' is much like a loose family group, they might all have generally similar features, like any extended family.

[Niobe]

Don't forget, Coulter, that there might be "Residual" Clans that are hanging around (The Thunderhelms, for example) that have essentially been wiped out, but still hold some weight in their opinions because of their age and history.

Perhaps if PC's wanting to revivify such clans RPed it out, they could have the Clan Name for themselves?
Just a thought.
Also... how's the general History for the formation of the Clans going to go? Were all the Dwarf-Clans once part of one family, and the Sons' names were (eg) Thunderhelm, Cumblethigh and their children took their names as a family name, and segmented off?

[Adder]

<pokes Coulter>

Come on, back on the top of your priority list!

I need a bit more clarity on the dwarfs and so far this thread isn't giving it to me

[Adder]

I'm in the process of planning the rewriting and changing some aspects of Zerdargia. I'd like to increase the dwarfen feeling of the place and one of the ways that I want to do that is with the overall look of the city in its general description and the location descriptions.

I have modified Timothys building description somewhat in my current version of the codex post, the relevant post is here.

I'd like some feedback on this if possible and I'd welcome any ideas people would like to put forward in this regard.

As a seperate point, I'd like to understand the age chart a little better so that I can get a better idea of what I can expect from the population. The age chart above would indicate that dwarfs are considered children until they are 95. I can understand this in some ways but in others it seems very odd. I mean does it mean that they stay in nappies until they are 10? I can't see a 25 year old dwarf being considered to have only just finished his early childhood when his human friend that he grew up with has been working for years etc. Do the dwarfs have an arrested growth period? When would they be able to start work, drink in a tavern etc? It makes sense to me to consider them physically and mentally adult in a similar if perhaps longer time frame than humans but perhaps not considered adult in a social sense.

[Raliric Ered`Gard]

Adder, it is the same with all of the races of Telath. They are not in nappies until they are ten years old (because there are no nappies but aside from that) they go through the same as human would. Now a days Humans aren't considered to be adults until they are 18 - 21, correct? This is because people expect them to be mature at this point in time, that is not to say that people below the age of 18 aren't mature and can't take care of themselves much like an adult can, it is more of a socially accepted age at which society believes them to be part the child and adolescent phases of their lives, thus making them adults.

Now, apply that to the dwarves and you have your answer. A dwarf will grow to to his height and breadth by the time he is 16 - 18 and then he will probably stop growing. His physical development will be complete and yet mentally he will still be a child. Between 18 and 95 he will mentally mature as life's experiences force him to deal with situations that in the end mature him. It was quite easy to say that a 45 year old dwarf who would be considered an adolescent, whom has his whole family massacred before his eyes and then he is tortured himself, would mature quite quickly and be socially accepted as an adult at the age of 45. Then again, those things don't happen to all dwarves, just as those things would rarely happen to humans at their adolescent period.

I think I have made my point, albeit confusingly.